TurtlePlastic

Can you imagine a major news network anchor saying the following in response to a guest describing the huge amount of garbage and plastic in the ocean?: “Well, obviously then, the answer is we need to stop dumping stuff in the ocean if we can avoid it.”  IF WE CAN AVOID IT?  I shook my head and had to ask myself if he really just said that. Do we really have to make a concerted effort? Is it really inconvenient for us to avoid “dumping stuff” in our ocean? Believe it or not, Don Lemon actually said this on his CNN news broadcast this evening, in response to a guest describing the mind blowing amount of plastic garbage polluting our seas.

This kind of ignorant disconnect from the inconvenient truth is bad enough, but even this isn’t even as harmful and damaging to the world as the “learned mental illness” of organized religion’s books of hate, the content of which is largely ignored in the interest of “tradition”. The problem in a nutshell is, like the mind blowing amount of pollution in our seas, religion (embraced largely because of tradition) throughout mankind’s history has consistently brought us even more of a mind blowing amount of war, hate and bigotry…while the popular false narrative its followers try to sell you is that it is about love.

Lest one make the mistake of thinking that is because people “misinterpret” the Bible or the Koran, let me say that is just more of the false narrative religion’s liars constantly push. The truth is, the Bible and the Koran are replete, that is to say jammed full of clear, unequivocal hate and bigotry, genocide, racism and angry vengeance, all clearly “ordained” by God in scripture. Yet its followers just choose to ignore the massive amounts of these passages in the interest of safeguarding their “family tradition” at the very least.

We have an obligation to begin an uncomfortable national if not universal conversation about this reality if we believe in world peace, and more specifically if we believe our nation can be the leader toward bringing about world peace. Why? Because religion continues to this day to be the one thing standing in the way of world peace. Like I asked at the beginning of this editorial about imagining a news anchor being so ignorant as to make such a statement about the ocean garbage, let me ask you this: Can you imagine a Jewish person accepting a book as “Holy” that frequently promotes genocide, and the massacre of entire cities and nations including men, women and children in the name of God?

I can’t imagine such insanity. But it is true. The Old Testament – the part of the Bible that Jews hold sacred to this day –  is replete with such monstrous stories of God commanding the Jews do the SAME THING to countries and cities they conquered as Hitler did to the Jews in World War II. (Read Joshua Chapter 6 for but one of many such genocide stories, supposedly ordered by God, that go on and on in the Old Testament)

It is inexcusable, and beyond irresponsible, that so many people continue to this day to hold such a hateful book sacred, and teach it to their children as “the word of God”. Let me take this moment to bring clarity to something important: God didn’t “ordain” the genocide described in those scriptures. Those stories are often historical to some extent, and the genocide described was committed by hate-filled men who sought to rationalize and deflect the evil of their actions by writing those scriptures claiming that God commanded it of them.

 

These same individuals wrote scriptures claiming that THEY were God’s “CHOSEN PEOPLE”. They crafted a book completely at odds with a God of love and forgiveness, full of stories that allowed them to get away with their vengeful genocidal hate toward other races and philosophies they came across, while claiming that God saw them as “superior”.

It is obvious to a 5 year old that these teachings are sick, and in direct conflict with love and forgiveness. Yet, Jews and Christians alike refuse to face this truth, usually in interest of their “family tradition”. That is more important to them than healing mankind on this planet with a proper understanding of what real, true spirituality is.

These religious beliefs are what I often call a “learned mental illness”. It is a mental illness created by a “brain washing” process of driving into your mind from childhood the message that you must believe these “holy scriptures” or you will burn in Hell for eternity. After all, as a child the “gospel” is anything your mother or father tells you. So therefore, the Bible must be the “Holy Gospel” if they tell you that it is under penalty of eternal damnation.

The problem for Christianity and Islam (and the good news for those few of us who are promoting this critical conversation today)…is that deep down in the recesses of a child’s mind, they can never totally reconcile this “penalty of damnation” and this “genocidal God” with the constant contradictory narrative that God is LOVE and Christianity is about FORGIVENESS. Deep down, we innately know that forgiveness and unconditional love can NEVER condemn. The two are polar opposites. And deep down we know that true spirituality is unconditional love and forgiveness that does not condemn anyone.

I was recently talking with some friends, and I used a metaphor I like to use to explain the difference between religion and true spirituality. If religion could be seen by everyone as being like a “favorite color”, it would not be harmful.

In other words, let’s say I was a Christian, and you were a Muslim. If both of us had no condemnation in mind toward the other based on our “faiths”, and we just agreed that our religions were like my favorite color being red and yours being blue, then peace on earth for mankind would finally be achievable. You see, true spirituality understands that we are all brothers and sisters. We are all connected. We are all a part of what “God” is. We may have a favorite “color” for how we like to imagine a “path” to the Divine, but true spirituality understands that all the “colors” are part of the SAME COLOR SPECTRUM.

What happened is this:  Just prior to the time the Old Testament covers, influential members of the Jewish community did what many other founders of religions have done throughout mankind’s history…they decided to create their own image of God that they could use to control their society through fear. The truth is, instead of us being created in “God’s image”, they created a sick, vengeful, bigoted God completely in their image.

And sadly it was accepted by their rank and file because it was just too easy to want to think of themselves as God’s elite “chosen race” as the Bible’s early “leaders” were telling them. The Old Testament is full of such references that God proclaimed them the “chosen race” of mankind and actually ordained their committing genocide of all that they conquered…men, women and children. This is one of the many huge red flags exposing the rampant false teachings and lies in the Bible, yet it is routinely ignored while being the “island of plastic the size of Texas” in the middle of the ocean, so to speak.

Connie Bryan
(Connie Bryan is the host of “The Connie Bryan Show” on Access Sacramento in Sacramento, CA http://www.conniebryan.com)

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About Connie Bryan

Writer, comedian and musician, currently residing in Sacramento, CA. Former talk radio personality from Central Florida. Currently doing stand-up comedy and producing/hosting a local TV comedy/variety show on Access Sacramento Channel 17. Please see demo material on my website at www.conniebryan.com.

14 responses »

  1. Agellius says:

    “Because religion continues to this day to be the one thing standing in the way of world peace.”

    So you’re saying religion is behind the Russian activities in and around the Ukraine?

    “The problem for Christianity and Islam (and the good news for those few of us who are promoting this critical conversation today)…is that deep down in the recesses of a child’s mind, they can never totally reconcile this “penalty of damnation” and this “genocidal God” with the constant contradictory narrative that God is LOVE and Christianity is about FORGIVENESS. Deep down, we innately know that forgiveness and unconditional love can NEVER condemn. The two are polar opposites. And deep down we know that true spirituality is unconditional love and forgiveness that does not condemn anyone.”

    What also can’t be reconciled is the idea that people can commit all manner of evil, without repenting, and yet not be condemned. If we have eternal souls, and forgiveness is guaranteed, then basically what you’re saying is that our eternal destiny has nothing to do with how we conduct ourselves in this life. This makes no sense to most people who give it any substantial amount of thought.

  2. Connie Bryan says:

    Thanks for your comment Agellius, though you missed the main context of what I said about religion being the one one thing standing in the way of world peace. Also I will address the anger you express at the idea that “everyone” could be forgiven for their bad behavior.

    First, what I clearly meant was not that there aren’t other issues to be overcome in achieving world peace. But historically, the one that has been consistently insurmountable has been religious bigotry based on Bible and Koran lies about who and what “God” is, and the belief that all others are condemned…Most wars in our history, and most mass genocide has incredibly been in the name of either God, Jesus or Mohammed, etc.

    Once we finally raise awareness about this mental illness masquerading as religion that has harmed mankind’s spiritual progress…once we finally make real progress in exposing these beliefs for the bigotry that they are in the name of God, then we can finally have a real shot at achieving world peace. Put another way, world issues of serious concern like the Russian aggression toward Ukraine are dwarfed in comparison, with respect to their overall ability to be resolved in the big picture.

    Lastly, it is very common to hear from Christians and Muslims who make angry comments about the idea that we are all a part of what God is, and there is NO condemnation. The religions of Christianity and Islam both depend on condemnation of all others.

    It greatly disappoints Bible and Koran believers to think that those who don’t believe like them could possibly also be forgiven for mistakes they make in life. Despite how hard it is for you to accept this Agellius, it is true. You, nor anyone else, corners the market on forgiveness based on your beliefs.

    Furthermore, the question of why people do bad things is absolutely NOT irreconcilable as you try to spin it. Ironically, Christians, Jews and Muslims have done some of the most evil things IN THE NAME OF GOD and JESUS, as not only our history chronicles, but like I described in my oped – AS THE BIBLE chronicles over and over with endless stories of God “ordaining” and ordering mass genocide by the Jews. Those who embraced slavery and racism toward African Americans often did so based on Bible verses where God supposedly “ordained” slavery and the idea of a “chosen people”, etc. The Ku Klux Klan was actually founded by Southern Baptists based on scriptures from the Bible that were not at all taken out of context. I could go on on and on.

    Understand this…Forgiveness doesn’t mean there aren’t always painful consequences in the learning process for those who do bad things. But ultimately they will be forgiven because ultimately they will learn the lesson they must learn, as they are also a part of the Divine. They do the bad things they do because they haven’t yet learned this.

    In other words, ignorance is the cause of their what you call “evil” behavior. But those who act in ways we might characterize as evil will not always behave this way. Sometimes it is a long learning curve for them. Sometimes it may not happen for them in this life experience. Because of the Bible’s brainwashing, it is very hard for Christians to accept that everyone is a part of what God is and therefore cannot be condemned to an eternity apart from God.

    As we are all a part of what God is, we will all eventually “heal” ourselves. But not with the sick bigoted teachings of the Bible and the Koran. We will do so with the realization that forgiveness and unconditional love are exactly that…UNCONDITIONAL.

    As we awaken to this real spiritual knowledge, and as we realized we are a part of what is Divine and Holy, and consequently our true nature is NOT “sinful”, then our behavior changes and we begin living in a healthy and “holy” way according to Divine Will. Our behavior is no longer as it may have been before this knowledge.

    I hope someday you will awaken to this understanding that there is no condemnation Agellius. But again, that isn’t to say there aren’t consequences in the learning process of life, as a result of resisting this understanding and making bad decisions or acting in destructive ways.

    Connie Bryan

  3. Agellius says:

    The main impression I get from your response is that you must have received revelations from God yourself. How else could you know that all will be forgiven regardless of their conduct and whether or not they repent? How could you know that all will eventually “learn” to not be evil and thereby stop being evil in fact? This sounds to me like a prophecy since it’s a prediction of the future.

    Regardless of what is taught by my religion, I don’t agree that evil comes from ignorance. Ignorance is a matter of the intellect: What knowledge you do or do not possess. Evil is a matter of will: What you choose to do or not do. Two people with the same knowledge may choose opposite things: One evil, one good. There are good and bad rich people and good and bad poor people; good and bad white people and good and bad black people; good and bad Americans and good and bad Chinese; good and bad educated people and good and bad ignorant people. None of these things makes you good or bad, but only your own choice of what to do or not do in your circumstances.

    If you say that ignorance makes people evil, then you’re saying we do not have free will, since we can’t help not knowing what we don’t know. I don’t buy it. It’s irreconcilable with my own observations.

    • Connie Bryan says:

      And you get your “revelations” from ?? I am assuming it is the Bible? Full of obvious and endless evil acts ordered by a God endorsing all the evil kinds of things you now are accusing others of being guilty of, and who you don’t want to be forgiven. How sad indeed, the unbelievably hypocritical place your “intellect” is at right now that you are choosing of your own “free will” in your current learning process of life.

      Ironically, as you desperately hold on to your “Linus” security blanket beliefs of condemnation toward all others outside your faith… that very “righteous” hate you feel entitled to hold toward your spiritual brothers and sisters is NO LESS than any other “evil” you choose to single out with respect to others you would see condemned by your beliefs. Very hypocritical, just like much of the Bible you get your “revelations” from, and you have so much yet to learn about true spirituality Agellius.

      As I said, and you keep avoiding, Christians, Jews and Muslims have engaged in some of the worst “evil” of all, and in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed over the centuries. Ah, but Christians can do these things because they are “forgiven”. You don’t make any sense, Agellius, and you are contradicting yourself in the interest of wanting whatever your “faith” is to be the ONLY one.

      That is the sickness and “mental illness” of organized religion. It is not true spirituality. Your “revelations” from your “holy book” full of these monstrous stories of vengeful acts ordered by God are what you are seeing as valid(??), while rejecting my revelations of true universal unconditional love and forgiveness.

      “Intellect” is clouded for many, ESPECIALLY Christians and Muslims. I find some of the most healthy living, most loving and forgiving people are not of those organized religions. They don’t look down on other faiths or those who believe differently than them,,and that is because they don’t adhere to such a sick belief or “intellect” as you are defending.

      The good news is, even your intellect will heal, despite your desire that everyone NOT be forgiven if they don’t share your belief or faith. Fortunately, it isn’t up to you Agellius. Even you will be forgiven for your desire that those outside your faith should be condemned.

      Connie Bryan

  4. Agellius says:

    Yes, I get my revelation from the Bible. But I note that you haven’t told me where you get yours from. How do you know that all will be forgiven regardless of their conduct and whether or not they repent; and that all will eventually “learn” to not be evil and thereby stop being evil?

    Not fair putting down my source of revelation while refusing to divulge your own.

    Also I find you rather shockingly judgmental. You say that I have “much to learn” — how do you know how much I have to learn? Is it merely the fact that I’m a Christian? Does that automatically brand me as ignorant? You accuse me of harboring hatred towards non-Christians. When did I ever express such a thing? Are you a mind-reader and a heart-reader, as well as a prophet? (Or perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?)

  5. Connie Bryan says:

    Agellius, your hatred is “prima facie” as they say in the legal field, meaning it is obvious “on its face” when you dogmatically espouse such a belief of condemnation toward others outside the religious belief you hold. And you are using the word judgmental loosely with regard to my words of correction for you, which espouse no such condemnation whatsoever toward you. You are the one with “condemning” beliefs toward others…here again your severe hypocrisy being on display in living color.

    I hold no condemnation toward you, which is the true context of “judgmental” It is clear to see your views are the definition of judgmental and common of Christians. It is ironic you would accuse me of that when I’ve made it clear that you nor anyone else is condemned, and that I only espouse forgiveness and unconditional love, even toward you. That is actually the opposite of what being ‘judgmental’ means Agellius. One can point out where correction is needed, just as a teacher does in a classroom, and of course she is not being judgmental in teaching such correction.

    My pointing these truths out to you is an effort to bring healing into your life and your awareness, whether you like it or not. Real wisdom such as what I have been sharing with you is not found in such a hateful book full of the bigoted examples I have shared with you that you cannot deny. Real spiritual wisdom and understanding comes from within.

    Deep in your consciousness, the things I’m sharing with you will resonate as true if you meditate on them honestly. As far as a written source of this spiritual knowledge, there are many, but I would encourage you to check out a book called “A Course In Miracles”. The reason all are forgiven is because all are a part of what God is, not “separate” from what God is.

    We are all a part of God, here to learn lessons. Some of us are harder “cases” than others, and take longer to learn our lessons, which is what I meant earlier when I said what you call “evil” actions are coming from those individuals “ignorance” of spiritual truth. They will not remain that ignorant for eternity, despite people like yourself who would wish eternal damnation on them for their mistakes. As a part of what God is, our true nature is “holy”, even though at present some are still in ignorance of that truth, and as such they act in very unhealthy, harmful ways that bring very painful consequences.

    Lastly, I will tell you this…We see what we CHOOSE to see. That is what “Free Will” means. If you choose to see yourself as “Agellius the Christian Condemner”, that is what you will see… a world you think deserves condemnation and that you are superior to.

    However, if you choose to see yourself as “Agellius the Spiritual Healer”, that is what you will see…a world that you give unconditional healing to, the absolute polar opposite of condemnation. In doing so, you will find a power greater than you could ever imagine, and you will begin creating miracles as a part of Divine Will. Right now, you are swimming against Divine Will with your condemning beliefs you learned from a book replete with stories of God ordaining vengeful genocide, slavery, etc as I have already detailed and you seem to want to go on ignoring.

    Time to give it a rest now:)

  6. Agellius says:

    We seem to have a differing understanding of what it means to “judge”. I always thought it meant to accuse someone of being guilty of some sin or of having bad motives. You seem very clearly to have attributed guilt as well as bad motives to me. Specifically, you accuse me of violating my own Christian faith, which commands me to love my even my enemies. Do I not love my enemies? Maybe not always, but I thought I put forth a reasonably good effort. According to what you have said about me, apparently my efforts have not been good enough. Still, I’m baffled as to how you could know that.

    Evidently, though, according to you I am guilty of hatred merely by virtue of being a Christian — being a Christian makes me prima facie hateful. Whoa, harsh!

    Getting back to my former question: Do you consider “A Course In Miracles” to be inerrant and infallible?

    • Connie Bryan says:

      First, you are going in circles, clearly not absorbing much of what I’ve specifically written to you that answers your main questions, especially about the issue of “judging”. I can’t keep going in circles with you Agellius. I actually wrote, “time to give it a rest”.

      But you keep going on and on, and now you hypocritically start talking about your “love” of all mankind, ignoring all that you’ve already advocated about your Christian beliefs in the condemnation of all those who aren’t “saved” of their “sin” by becoming a Christian. Don’t even try to to tell me you don’t believe that. That is the major cornerstone belief of Christians, that all who aren’t Christians are deserving of damnation for eternity. How unbelievably sick. That is the “hate” you hold that is “prima facie”, and that you keep wanting to ignore about yourself.

      I have gone to great lengths to clearly explain that, and you just ignore what I’ve written, and act like you are “hurt” that you have been accused of wrong behavior.. I explained that I am bringing you correction, not “judgment”. However, you on the other hand have beliefs as a Christian that bring “judgment” to all who aren’t Christians.

      Typically, the silly response Christians love to resort to on that topic is: “Well I don’t judge, God judges them”. That is playing the “semantics game”. You hold the belief in such condemnation, and that is what is hateful. A Ku Klux Klansman who holds the belief of the Klan Charter can’t deny his/her hate because they simply believe the writings of those who wrote their racist hate manual (founded by Southern Baptists using Bible sources that showed God ordaining slavery and racism)

      Then Christians typically try to avoid admitting this by playing more of a semantic game by saying, “Well I hate the sin, not the sinner”. Still, the hate is real. You are looking down on them because they are not of your belief. That is hate and religious bigotry. You believe in a book full of endless stories of God ordaining and ordering horrible mass genocide and slavery, the demeaning of women as second class “helpmates” to submit to the authority of men, condemnation of all but Jews and Christians, etc. This is hate on a major scale.

      I have explained all this to you already, and you keep going in circles. As far as violating your Christian faith, lol, your Christian faith innately violates and contradicts itself, so you in believing its sick teachings of condemnation cannot help but violate what unconditional love and forgiveness means.

      Agellius, meditate on this, and you will get it: Unconditional love and forgiveness, by their definition, CANNOT EVER CONDEMN. Love never condemns, it is impossible. Forgiveness never condemns. It is impossible, If we believe in unconditional love, we cannot then believe also in condemnation. If we believe in the power of healing, we do not also embrace condemnation. These are polar opposites.

      You are guilty of ignoring these truths in the interest of embracing a bigoted teaching that promotes condemnation, from a book full of lies written by men who were also guilty of the same. The good news is, you will not be condemned for that. You are forgiven for that. You will heal at some point, though now as you are being introduced to real spiritual truth, you are smugly rejecting it when it is the one thing that will finally bring peace, healing and miracles of Highest Wisdom into your life.

      I’m not going to get into a back and forth argument with you about written texts, though I suggested if you want to check out a written text, check out “A Course in Miracles” for a good starting point. Again, as I told you before, these spiritual truths are not dependent on any written text by men like the one you have been led astray with. They are discovered within yourself, and from other healing spirits…your spiritual brothers and sisters like me, who bring them to your attention.

      Take Care Agellius. Meditate on these things and you will eventually find them to resonate truth and healing in your heart of hearts.

      For now, let’s give it a rest:)

      Connie Bryan

  7. Agellius says:

    It is a fact that Christians are not taught to hate anyone, that we are taught to love even our enemies. If we were taught to hate people, then we would be glad when a soul is lost. But on the contrary, every soul is precious, and this is why Christians, often at great cost to themselves — sometimes at the cost of their own lives — have gone to every corner of the world in the attempt to save them.

    This is totally unlike the hatred of groups like the KKK. The KKK simply advocates destruction of non-whites. It doesn’t go to non-white lands throughout the world, trying to help them.

  8. Connie Bryan says:

    Agellius, Christians are OF COURSE taught to hate. by believing that they are saved and all others are worthy and deserving of being damned to an eternity of burning in fire. That is a huge, major form of hate toward the diversity of your spiritual brothers and sisters. You are again playing a semantics game to say that isn’t hate. Secondly, we’ve already been over these topics a few times. It appears you are either not reading what I’ve wrote already, or you just want to keep going in circles.

    Thirdly, once again you ignore my context about the Klan…I wasn’t even making an exact comparison, yet you seized on that to make an unrelated point. Christians – Southern Baptists – founded the KKK, “loving” followers of Jesus.

    I will leave you with a few thoughts, and we need to give it a rest as I have asked already on two occasions, as it seems you just want to argue in circles.

    Hate takes many forms. It is often falsely “disguised” by those who practice it, No matter how you try to rationalize it, looking at others who believe differently than you as “lost” and “condemned”, etc,.. that is the quintessential definition of hate, as I have already made clear, and you don’t want to accept.

    HOWEVER, if you were the victim of such a thing from another faith, who singled you out and said, “We LOVE you, but you must convert or we believe you are condemned”…if you were to experience such a thing from others with such “conditions” for their acceptance of you as spiritual brother or sister in the Kingdom of God, you would definitely realize it as absolutely being hate MASQUERADING as “love”.

    Ironically, this is exactly what happened to Native Americans at the hands of Christians who came to the Americas. When the vast majority of Native Americans wouldn’t convert, millions were killed as a consequence, or placed into slavery. It was seen as loving and for their own good to place them into slavery as opposed to killing them. Christians like yourself rationalized their behavior as love and the mass killing as “ordained” by God, just as there are many such stories in the Bible claiming God ordained similar genocide. It doesn’t get any sicker than this.

    As far as your self serving reference to Christians’ noble efforts of travelling to the far corners of the earth to convert followers…That is not at all uncommon for organized religion in general. Muslims and Mormons continue to go to every corner of the world “at great cost to themselves” as well, in an attempt to “save” others such as yourself from “damnation”. Their looking at you in such a disrespectful way is clearly a form of hate, disguised as “love”. You can see this isn’t love, but you don’t want to see the same about your doing the same to others. You have a faith that does the same thing their faith does, looking at others as condemned if they don’t convert. That is not true spirituality. It is simply man-made religious bigotry “masquerading” as love.

    Christians are falsely taught that this is what “love” is. But it is “conditional love”. True spiritual love has NO CONDITIONS. Neither you as a Christian, nor they as a Mormon, nor a Muslim…none of you corner the market of “salvation”. Salvation is found in unconditional love and forgiveness…Salvation is found in understanding we are all a part of what “God” is, no one is “separate” from it.

    You don’t realize it yet, but just simply believing your brother is “separate” from what God is, just simply that mindset is a form of hate. Love is understanding there is no condemnation, only healing and forgiveness because ALL are a part of what is Divine…Divinity EQUALS Diversity. That is to say that diversity of thought is what “God” is, therefore creation is very diverse. But in that diversity, there is no condemnation as a result. As long as you seek to believe that there is , you practice a form of hate toward your brothers and sisters, just as I said, they do to you if they are of a belief that thinks they must “save” you or you are “damned” in their eyes.

    Christians always love to rationalize such beliefs by saying “we hate the sin, not the sinner”. That is a major cop out, and as I said, playing semantics. When they say this they are admitting their hate, just trying to draw a distinction that really isn’t there at all.

    Connie Bryan

  9. Agellius says:

    I realize that you want to “give this a rest” and have said so repeatedly. But I notice that every time you say it, you proceed to post a response that is even longer than mine. You have a funny way of resting. : )

    You write, “No matter how you try to rationalize it, looking at others who believe differently than you as “lost” and “condemned”, etc,.. that is the quintessential definition of hate, as I have already made clear, and you don’t want to accept.”

    Or maybe I just think that definition is incorrect. (Am I not entitled to my opinion?) The classical definition of “love” is “to wish someone well”. The corresponding defniition of “hate” is “to wish someone ill”. It is a simple fact that Christianity, as a religion, does not wish anyone ill, but wishes everyone well.

    You write, “if you were to experience such a thing from others with such “conditions” for their acceptance of you as spiritual brother or sister in the Kingdom of God, you would definitely realize it as absolutely being hate MASQUERADING as “love”.”

    Christians are well acquainted with being hated by others, thank you.

    You write, “As far as your self serving reference to Christians’ noble efforts of travelling to the far corners of the earth to convert followers…Muslims and Mormons continue to go to every corner of the world “at great cost to themselves” as well, in an attempt to “save” others such as yourself from “damnation”. Their looking at you in such a disrespectful way is clearly a form of hate, disguised as “love”.”

    On the contrary, I do see Mormon missionaries who knock on my door, as doing so out of love. I think the vast majority of the time they mean well and they wish me well, which is the definition of love.

    You write, “Salvation is found in unconditional love and forgiveness…”

    Correct. Christianity teaches that you must forgive anyone who harms you unconditionally — not once, not seven times, but seventy times seven times. When Christians go to other people and try to convert them, this is what they are teaching them: They are saying basically, “If you join our religion, you will be expected to love and forgive everyone unconditionally.”

    I’ll give it a rest now if you will. I appreciate you letting me have my full say.

  10. Connie Bryan says:

    Agellius, my asking you to stop going in circles and to give it a rest, that you have ignored repeatedly, obviously doesn’t mean I shouldn’t reply to all the spiritually bankrupt, constant contradictions you keep engaging in on my blog, with the condemning beliefs you keep promoting as “love”. Whether you want to believe it or not, “LOVE” CANNOT CONDEMN. The two are polar contradictions by definition. But your replies have been replete with such contradictions left and right.

    Look at this huge contradiction you write to me, in which on the one hand you say you realize beliefs held by OTHER faiths that you are condemned as a Christian are “hate”, but then later you say Mormons due so out of love. You can’t have it both ways, Agellius. But that is the foundation of Christianity’s lies…”Love as we define it with our religious conditions”..

    You refer to what I wrote last, where I reminded you that “if you were to experience such a thing from others with such “conditions” for their acceptance of you as spiritual brother or sister in the Kingdom of God, you would definitely realize it as absolutely being hate MASQUERADING as “love”.”

    Then you reply to me that, “Christians are well acquainted with being hated by others, thank you.”

    You refer to what I wrote last: “As far as your self serving reference to Christians’ noble efforts of travelling to the far corners of the earth to convert followers…Muslims and Mormons continue to go to every corner of the world “at great cost to themselves” as well, in an attempt to “save” others such as yourself from “damnation”. Their looking at you in such a disrespectful way is clearly a form of hate, disguised as “love”.”

    Then you contradict the above admission about the hate Christians are no strangers to, with: “On the contrary, I do see Mormon missionaries who knock on my door, as doing so out of love. I think the vast majority of the time they mean well and they wish me well, which is the definition of love.”

    Agellius, first you admit Christians are well acquainted with hate in the exact context I described, understanding that what I described was in fact hate for another major religion to look at you as condemned.(just as you look at them.) But then you contradict yourself and decide that Mormons who come to your door expressing such a thing are doing so out of love. This is just more rationalizing by you, for convenience, as you are having to now realize that if their seeing you as condemned for being a Christian is hate, then so is what you are doing.

    The bottom line with you is that you hold on to your condemning Bible beliefs like a “security blanket”, and just like a Muslim fundamentalist, you think your beliefs are “holy” and all others are “condemned”. First you realized that if a Muslim were to do so toward you, it is an example of the hate Christians are used to, then you take it back with respect to a Mormon doing it. Very hypocritical Agellius.

    No matter how many obvious examples i give you to show that those who use their faith to look on others of different faiths as condemned is hateful, you will choose to continue to rationalize it, while deep down your heart of hearts KNOWS that if others did that to you, it is hate…it is not what unconditional love is.

    Lastly, I want to reinforce one other important fact. as it relates to the comparison we briefly touched on earlier with the similarity of hate with respect to Christians and White Supremists/racists. You as a Christian, with your condemning beliefs toward other faiths, are actually MORE hateful with such a belief than a person who is simply “racist” toward another ethnicity. Why?

    Because those who, let’s say are KKK members, are often not hateful toward blacks. They hate certain interactions between blacks and whites, but they just want the two races to be segregated and they primarily just believe they are superior (as Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc) do as well.

    But Christians are much more guilty than the racist person, because they so hold that other person in such contempt (Hate the sin, love the sinner semantics) that they believe they should burn in eternal hell fire as a result of holding that different faith.The racist Klansman or white supremist doesn’t hold anywhere near such contempt, only a belief they are superior, which is of course bad enough. But they don’t look at Black people as deserving to burn in hell for eternity for their diversity. A religion that discriminates by believing in condemnation of their diverse brothers and sisters of other faiths is MUCH more hateful than simply the racist individual or group.

    It is mentally ill for any member of any religion with beliefs in condemnation, to look at someone as a “sinner” condemned to hell simple because they are of a different faith. This is, as I said, is the quintessential example of hate, MASQUERADING as love. And no matter how many times you try to rationalize it or redefine it, your opinion that you are “saved” and your brothers and sisters who believe differently than you are “unsaved sinners”, it is still nothing but very sick hate that you have been taught to believe.

    You are so brainwashed that you are yet unable to recognize it, except for a brief moment as shown above, where you did respond to that example I gave, that Christians are very familiar with such hate. But then a paragraph later you contradicted yourself again.

    The fact that you ignore all the examples of horrible genocide and racism supposedly ordained by God, in passages written by men all over the Bible, explains that you will ignore all that I’ve shown you in our correspondence where you constantly contradict yourself. You have a “conditional” kind of Love. Unconditional Love, that which is spiritual truth, CANNOT CONDEMN. It ONLY FORGIVES, forever.

    We, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Mormons, Atheists, Agnostics, etc…we are all a part of what “God” is, all learning the lessons we must learn as a part of the Divine. Everyone will ultimately learn the lessons of unconditional love and forgiveness. Everyone will ultimately realize we are all part of the Divine, and no one is condemned.

    Some learn their lessons the hard way, and it sounds ironically like you may be one of them, as opposed to say some hardened criminal one might imagine. As long as you hold on to a vision of your world as “conditionally saved”, and “condemned” if they don’t share your belief, you will continue to create major unhappiness and not realize the Divine miracles that come with unconditional forgiveness.

    Connie Bryan

  11. Agellius says:

    I’m sorry that I don’t respond to every argument you make. This is because you tend to make a lot of them in each comment, and there’s not enough space for me to respond to each one. The main argument I’m trying to refute is your argument that Christians are hateful because of believing that sin will be punished.

    As I see it, what you’re saying boils down to this:

    Christians believe that there will be bad consequences for sin. Therefore Christians hate people who sin.

    This is like saying, I believe there will be bad consequences for drinking contaminated water, therefore I hate people who drink contaminated water.

    Suppose that I did believe there are bad consequences for drinking contaminated water. As a result, I go around trying to convince people not to drink contaminated water. I say, “Here, drink this other water instead, it’s a lot safer”, and I take the time and trouble to help get them access to clean water. Am I not acting out of concern for their well-being? Now is this an act of hate or of love?

    The connection you’re trying to draw, between believing in punishment for sin, and hating people who sin, is in your imagination. There is no logical ground for connecting the two, especially in light of the efforts of Christians to try to help people *avoid* punishment for sin.

    You might have a point if the Christian religion taught that Christians, themselves, should condemn those who sin. But on the contrary, the Christian religion teaches that Christians should *not* judge sinners, saying “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” The Christian religion teaches that *God* judges sinners; but it also teaches that God is an all-knowing, perfect judge, who will *never* punish anyone who doesn’t deserve it. Therefore, we believe that only those who deserve punishment will be punished — while at the same time, admitting that we have no way of knowing who deserves punishment and who does not.

    (One thing that I suggest keeping in mind, is that not all Christian denominations teach the same thing. You may assume that I believe the same thing as, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church, whose members go around holding up signs saying “God Hates Fags”. I think there is no question that such behavior is unchristian and hateful, and I do NOT believe that God hates homosexuals.)

    What I notice about your method of argumentation, is that you are extremely dogmatic about your position. You don’t allow for the slightest possibility that you could be wrong — much like a fundamentalist Christian. That is why I keep asking if you believe “A Course in Miracles” is inerrant or infallible, which you have not answered.

    • Connie Bryan says:

      First of all Agellius, there is PLENTY of space for your reply, LOL… so your saying that I make too many points for you in my reply, and there isn’t enough space for you to reply is actually dishonest, and just yet another cop out.

      I have said that you keep going in circles because you keep ignoring many of my points that have exposed your beliefs for the extreme hate and religious bigotry that they are. I have shown you specific examples, time and again, and you just ignore them to continue “rationalizing” your condemning Bible beliefs. If your beliefs were just that there will be “punitive consequences” for bad decisions in life, it wouldn’t necessarily be hate you exhibit, as punitive consequences don’t have to mean ETERNAL DAMNATION, LOL.

      I have said that bad, unhealthy living does have negative consequences and makes for a more painful experience in the process of learning the lessons we are here to learn, the most important of which is learning to love and forgive everyone UNCONDITIONALLY. You have absolutely not learned that, and ironically Christianity is what is keeping you from learning this. I was raised on Christianity, cut my teeth on the Bible, and it is replete with man made bigotry, not Godly ordained unconditional love. I have given you examples, and of course you ignore them.

      On the topic of your belief that all who “sin” deserve punishment or punitive consequences…You are obsessed with believing in something that makes punitive consequences seem like just a case of bad heartburn, in comparison to your belief that they deserve to be condemned to eternally burn in hell forever. And you thought I was being “harsh” for saying just being a Christian is prima facie “hate”? It is that desire of Christians to readily believe in such eternal torment of your diverse brothers and sisters that is obvious hate on its face. There is no denying this, unless one is brainwashed to think such a mindset is part of “God’s Love”. Such a “God” is created in your own sick image, not the other way around.

      The other problem I will address here in this reply is your constant reference to “punishment” as a result of people’s “SIN”.

      You see other’s SIN as just simply NOT being a Christian like you. What you have resisted from my replies, that i have explained to you numerous times, is that hate is exhibited in MANY SUBTLE forms. I will say it again, to make sure you don’t miss it…Hate is evident and practiced in MANY very SUBTLE forms. It is most always “rationalized” by those who exhibit it, meaning they make up excuses in their “imaginations” for embracing it… It is often camouflaged and “nuanced”. The “love” that ironically both Christianity and Islam tout is a “conditional love”. It is NOT UNCONDITIONAL. It is completely and absolutely conditional. Because, if one unconditionally loves, then one unconditionally will NOT CONDEMN. The two are polar opposites. You keep trying to make them compatible, which is very sick. That is the lie of Christianity.

      Let me give you a good example: A parent, (with rare exception for “bad parents”) would NEVER conceive of “condemning” their children as punishment for their mistakes in life. Would they use discipline to help them learn lessons as I have already described, absolutely. But “punishment” would never be ETERNAL CONDEMNATION. Good Grief, how hateful that would be! ESPECIALLY just for their child “believing” differently than them?…For just simply having a diverse “faith”?

      But you don’t yet realize you have been brainwashed to believe in a God that is “created in man’s image” (not the other way around ironically)…A God vowing to do just that. Yet we are a “creation” specifically made to have DIVERSE thoughts and beliefs. That is a very sick concept of God. It is not spiritual truth.

      Agellius, you want to believe in a book that claims to be about unconditional love, but is all about ONE CONDITION. Yet, you are no different than other religions who have their book written by men, just as your book is, and they have their “conditions” for God’s love just like you. If that condition is not met, they, just like you, see others as condemned. That is hate, MASQUERADING as love.It is hate disguised as “GOOD INTENTION”. It is absolutely not unconditional love. And furthermore, it is absolutely not forgiveness. Forgiveness by definition CANNOT CONDEMN.

      Spiritual truth destroys the Christian lie that dogmatically believes all others are condemned. Spiritual truth is that there is no condemnation. Love EQUALS forgiveness. If what is Divine is unconditional love and forgiveness, then obviously love and forgiveness are the OPPOSITE of any form or concept of “condemnation” IMAGINED by man in their fearful imaginings about God. This that I am trying to show you is not just my imagination. Agellius. There is miraculous power in understanding this. Understand this, and you create miracles beyond your wildest imagination.

      Again, I gave you the example that if you as a Christian encountered a Muslim or Mormon treating you in a similar fashion, disrespecting you, NOT seeing you as a part of the Kingdom of God as they are, you would recognize that as a form of hate, even though that was their belief that actually YOU are an infidel (or “sinner”)

      Oh but wait, it is OK for Agellius to have this belief toward them and it ISN’T hate, just because it is YOUR belief. You want to believe that makes it different. Talk about an over active imagination! This is the lie…it is a false teaching you have been sold, created by men who had no concept of unconditional love. It has been repeated and repeated again and again for thousands of years by those who wanted to control their societies through fear. Christianity is actually “late to that game” so to speak. It isn’t a new teaching.

      I can be “dogmatic” about unconditional love, just as Americans can be “dogmatic” about mankind having the inalienable right to LIBERTY. Just as I can be “dogmatic” that racism and bigotry are hateful, I can be sure I am not wrong that all are forgiven, despite Agellius’ desire that they suffer eternal damnation because of your Bible belief in such a sick extreme hateful condemnation of your brother or sister simply because they were of another faith, or made different mistakes than you, etc. Shame on you for such a destructive dogmatic belief in such damnation for your spiritual brothers and sisters, just as I would equally shame a Muslim for looking at you as condemned.

      It doesn’t matter that you think you have “good intentions”, because get this Agellius: Your belief in the “intention” that they be damned as their “punishment” if they don’t believe like you DESTROYS all your supposed “good intentions”.

      Agellius, with regard to this quote of yours from your last reply: “The connection you’re trying to draw, between believing in punishment for sin, and hating people who sin, is in your imagination. There is no logical ground for connecting the two, especially in light of the efforts of Christians to try to help people avoid punishment for sin.”

      This quote of yours is clearly not true, because as I have already reminded you, if you experienced such behavior from Muslims, you would KNOW it was hate “on its face”, masquerading as “good intention”, not to accept you.

      And your example of consequences for drinking contaminated water doesn’t “hold water”. If you in your mind felt that they would be “damned” for not drinking your “HOLY WATER”, yes that is hate “disguised” as love. It is CONDITIONAL, not unconditional. But likely you will just continue to ignore this obvious truth.

      Connie Bryan

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